OOC Chat

[Togashi Satsuki]

I don't think that a caste system necessitates a celestial boot stomping on a human face forever. It does have some inequalities. How much, what kind, and how much cruelty is involved is more up to implementation.

This.

The Celestial Order is happening, it is in the nature of the Kami (they all support it).

But it doesn't have to be kicking peasants into the dirt or downright cruelty towards anyone of a lower caste.

[Doji Dojihime]

Bushido demands that we treat the high and low with respect and dignity; to do otherwise is to fail yourself, your sensei, your lineage, and Lord.

[Wu Zhe]

Bushi-what?

[Doji Dojihime]

Bushi-what?

It's okay, we don't expect the other Clans to be as progressive as we are.

[Togashi Satsuki]

Bushi-what?

It's okay, we don't expect the other Clans to be as progressive as we are.

Hey, the rest of the Dragon are cultured and can read. We have learned about Bushido.

[Makime Ayano]

This is going to be a long winter.

[Doji Dojihime]

This is going to be a long winter.

Plenty of time for pleasant encounters and fellowship.

[Ryoshun Ume]

Bushido: Why the Lion peasants are famous for being well treated.

[Hantei Kinsen]

This is going to be a long winter.

Indeed. There's a lot to teach.

[Jiyo Sora]

This is going to be a long winter.

Indeed. There's a lot to teach.

Indeed. there is.

But it is an interesting thought though...

Because, at this point in time, people are able to specialize. Food supplies and food security is probably at this point at an unprecedented high, due to the fact that many people can focus exclusively on agriculture, another group can focus on crafting/repairs, and none of them have to have their work ruined or halted because they need to fight off raiders - you now have a specialised group for that. Literacy is also spreading because you have people who have time to study it and then teach it to others.

So for groups that are "refusing" this Order, they are seeing less advancement overall.

Eh... the issue with a caste system is that if you have someone born to a warrior family, but they're absolute shit at being a warrior, the disappointed expectation is going to be more of an issue than if you have people take jobs by aptitude.

Birth does not determine aptitude- and since we have libraries to let everyone (and they do educate everyone) know what possibilities are out there?

And when it comes to fighting... it's all well and good when you have samurai on hand, but the Empire is, well, big. Being avenged by samurai later is cold comfort to a farmer who might have done all right if he and his fellows had known how to use spears.

Also, I wouldn't stifle the next great architect simply because their parents were both farmers.


Hmmm.

*Begins pondering a mandarinate-style civil service examination*

[Doji Dojihime]

That probably varies by Clan, on how aptitudes are handled. Even in the Canon setting a Doji could be a warrior and a Shiba could be a priest or artisan. I don't see that changing much, the samurai rank is more social position in that regard. Is every Matsu in Canon a roaring fighter, obviously not, same could be said at the dawn of time. Literacy is out there but if you spend your days farming how much reading do you really need? If you can have a decent life and provide for your family and village while others do the hard work of playing solider or handling other aspects of civilized life then all to the good.

Even without a caste system it was not uncommon for people to be funneled into the roles of their parents, since it was familiar and accessible.

The idea of work and occupation is not something that seems to have been a huge consideration, it was a side job or hustle on top of trying to provide enough food in many places.

OOC: Also for real critical mass on reading we need easy access to mass printed materials. We don't have a printing press that I know of so 'books' of any type are still probably rare. If you want scribes then you want farmers and specialized labor so people can just scribe all day and still have their needs met.

[Doji Misaki]

....ooo, an honor 10 Ascetic Doji with a side hustle. I like the idea.

[Doji Dojihime]

....ooo, an honor 10 Ascetic Doji with a side hustle. I like the idea.

Your time has finally come.

[Doji Dojihime]

As an addendum for the spread of books:

It typically took a scribe fifteen months to copy a Bible.[23] Such books were written on parchment or vellum made from treated hides of sheep, goats, or calves. These hides were often from the monastery's own animals as monasteries were self-sufficient in raising animals, growing crops, and brewing beer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribe

[Togashi Satsuki]

But it is an interesting thought though...

Because, at this point in time, people are able to specialize. Food supplies and food security is probably at this point at an unprecedented high, due to the fact that many people can focus exclusively on agriculture, another group can focus on crafting/repairs, and none of them have to have their work ruined or halted because they need to fight off raiders - you now have a specialised group for that. Literacy is also spreading because you have people who have time to study it and then teach it to others.

So for groups that are "refusing" this Order, they are seeing less advancement overall.

Eh... the issue with a caste system is that if you have someone born to a warrior family, but they're absolute shit at being a warrior, the disappointed expectation is going to be more of an issue than if you have people take jobs by aptitude.

Birth does not determine aptitude- and since we have libraries to let everyone (and they do educate everyone) know what possibilities are out there?

And when it comes to fighting... it's all well and good when you have samurai on hand, but the Empire is, well, big. Being avenged by samurai later is cold comfort to a farmer who might have done all right if he and his fellows had known how to use spears.

Also, I wouldn't stifle the next great architect simply because their parents were both farmers.


Hmmm.

*Begins pondering a mandarinate-style civil service examination*

At this point, I think there is more social mobility because the Celestial Order has been around for like... 15-20 years. People still remember the time before it, and it's now that we're seeing the first generation born into it. Even in canon, we have things like Hantei marrying a fisherman's daughter, crafters being elevated to daimyo, and so on.

The Celestial Order has been established, but it takes time before it becomes the solidified structure that we know from canon L5R. At this point, it is more separation of leadership and labour. Samurai isn't exclusively warriors, considering how many of the Kami's direct followers (and thus founding Daimyo) aren't warriors, but from what Canary wrote in the section on Social Classes, we are now seeing that warriors are becoming a distinction from those who do labour, with the warriors "ranked above" those who do labour (probably because they are the ones risking their lives to defend the clan and its resourecs from bandits, raiders, those who still oppose the Kami, ogres, maybe goblins - so it is a different form of responsibility in the clan).

In this early stages of the Empire, founding proper agricultural developments is critical to move beyond "just being sustained". Once food security is higher, it allows society to explore other things, like technology, literacy, culture. Having people who can focus on this is a huge benefit for establishing better resources.

Canary mentions this too in the timeline write up:

Year 5
The Kami return from their wandering to discover that the population of the area around Seppun Hill had grown from a village into a bustling town. They decide to settle down there for a few days to talk to the visitors while they talk about what they discovered.
Dawn of the Empire: The Tournament takes place here.
After several days of discussion and meeting with the tribespeople, the Kami have a discussion on the hill, deciding to organize the tribes and offer their knowledge to improving things after seeing the subsistence-level existence they were maintaining, stuck in an endless loop of rebirths without the Celestial Order to guide them to greater destinies.

EDIT: To make myself clear, since I think a lot of RL opinions are mixing in here, from myself included. The Celestial Order is clearly here in this setting, but I don't think we're into full on Caste at this point. Things like this needs to be eased into it, and for the Kami, who are practically immortal (none of them will die of old age), they can also afford to "play the long game", so to speak, to see society develop. They don't have to squash people into rigid castes with no hope of change without reincarnation, but they can lay the groundwork for it, which we are seeing now as per the Almanac-writeup.

Moderation in everything. It's not 100% or 0% (yet).

[Otomo Gusai]

As an addendum for the spread of books:

It typically took a scribe fifteen months to copy a Bible.[23] Such books were written on parchment or vellum made from treated hides of sheep, goats, or calves. These hides were often from the monastery's own animals as monasteries were self-sufficient in raising animals, growing crops, and brewing beer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribe

There are other issues involved in that. Among them is that parchment takes *time.* Also, the copy-work was often seen as devotional, so it was done with particular care and purpose--and that also slowed progress.

And there are the errors that creep in...

[Makime Ayano]

Basic militia training is with in the purview of the possible as is basic literacy but...

Farming is hard work and most people have to do it or everyone starves. With the advancements of agriculture we should be capable of freeing up people for other tasks.

If you want a system of 'meritocracy' I welcome it... myself and my children coming from families already detached from farming and able to spend time educating ourselves will out perform the peasant child who must work to survive and can not spare the time to learn more than the basics they need to farm more efficiently.

Having said all that the Makime are willing to free what peasants we can from farming...to serve as properly trained fighters supporting the warrior elite.

[Togashi Satsuki]

As an addendum for the spread of books:

It typically took a scribe fifteen months to copy a Bible.[23] Such books were written on parchment or vellum made from treated hides of sheep, goats, or calves. These hides were often from the monastery's own animals as monasteries were self-sufficient in raising animals, growing crops, and brewing beer.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scribe

There are other issues involved in that. Among them is that parchment takes *time.* Also, the copy-work was often seen as devotional, so it was done with particular care and purpose--and that also slowed progress.

And there are the errors that creep in...

Yeah, parchment takes a long time to make. But it also lasts for-frickin-ever in comparison to paper.

I am not sure if Rokugan at this point would take to parchment, considering its made of animal-hide... *thinking* Maybe a question for the GMs when they're around again?

[Doji Dojihime]

I just have to wonder how full these libraries are, even after fifteen years.

[Otomo Gusai]

Yeah, parchment takes a long time to make. But it also lasts for-frickin-ever in comparison to paper.

If it doesn't get eaten, yeah.

Lots of stuff likes to eat it, though.