General Poll: Number of Thunders

[Jiyo Ayumu]

Seven. Or even less. If everyone's a Thunder, no one's a Thunder. It diminishes their specialness.

And from a story point of view, having a lot of Thunders is likely to end up with Thunders that kind of hang around instead of having a well-defined role. Especially as this is already an issue in the original story : Out of the eight (+ one crow + one horse) people that wandered into the Shadowlands, four had a clear purpose (Shinsei = the brain, Isawa = the magician, Shosuro = the escape artist, Mirumoto = the inside man) and four were more or less interchangeable muscles.

Plus, from a practical point of view, having 13 Thunders out of a group of ~20 active players would be kind of weird, especially for the ~7 unchosen ones.

[Doji Dojihime]

Seven. Or even less. If everyone's a Thunder, no one's a Thunder. It diminishes their specialness.

And from a story point of view, having a lot of Thunders is likely to end up with Thunders that kind of hang around instead of having a well-defined role. Especially as this is already an issue in the original story : Out of the eight (+ one crow + one horse) people that wandered into the Shadowlands, four had a clear purpose (Shinsei = the brain, Isawa = the magician, Shosuro = the escape artist, Mirumoto = the inside man) and four were more or less interchangeable muscles.

Plus, from a practical point of view, having 13 Thunders out of a group of ~20 active players would be kind of weird, especially for the ~7 unchosen ones.

What they said.

I think this is one where wanting everyone to be special ends up backfiring. I would honestly be happy with people being chosen and no mini-game and they are just NPCed and the GMs dictate the outcome really since whatever occurs is gonna be a deus ex machina kind of thing anyway.

[Anjing Sagara]

I know Japanese are very picky with numbers, so I did a bit of google search and 9 is an awful number for Japanese because ku (九 – nine), sounds like ku (苦 – suffering, agony or torture). So I would actually go with a different number, maybe 8.

Although slightly less well-known, eight is also a lucky number. This is due to its shape – 八. Called suehirogari (末広がり), it’s lucky because it widens at the bottom which reminds one of prosperity and growth.

The 8 could be referred to something different than the number of kami, or the number of clans... be something more spiritual, like the 8 virtues of the samurai (instead of the original 7 of Bushido).

[Jiyo Sora]

A Thunder's special sauce status is very much a one-off, for what it's worth- and it's easy to get hung up on it, despite the fact that in canon, Shosuro, Isawa, Matsu, and arguably Mirumoto were the only ones who directly shaped the macro-identity of their clans, and only in Shosuro's case did that shaping derive from her actions as a Thunder. In most cases (like, all but Shosuro and Atarasi), their stories as characters who influenced things beyond smacking Fu Leng in the face were basically done before Shinsei picked them (if they got any such story at all- poor Konisiko and Otaku didn't even really get THAT much).

For what it's worth, with the Yume-Do thing, I'd rather have a Nezumi Thunder than an Imperial one...

[Kuu]

I like the 11. Even if this is the age of man, no single culture or race ever fought off Jigoku alone even if they did the bulk of the heavy lifting. The duty of fighting off the realm of evil should belong to all beings in whichever spirit realm it assaults.

[Nozomi]

A Thunder's special sauce status is very much a one-off, for what it's worth- and it's easy to get hung up on it, despite the fact that in canon, Shosuro, Isawa, Matsu, and arguably Mirumoto were the only ones who directly shaped the macro-identity of their clans, and only in Shosuro's case did that shaping derive from her actions as a Thunder. In most cases (like, all but Shosuro and Atarasi), their stories as characters who influenced things beyond smacking Fu Leng in the face were basically done before Shinsei picked them (if they got any such story at all- poor Konisiko and Otaku didn't even really get THAT much).

For what it's worth, with the Yume-Do thing, I'd rather have a Nezumi Thunder than an Imperial one...

In truth, yeah. You're about spot on. Now, that said? That's not necessarily what happens here. We'll see how chapter 4 plays out, but in many regards, the story of a "Thunder" is the final conclusion of a Great Destiny. By the nature of the climactic battle, the majority of the Thunders don't generally survive the encounter. Many were lost in the second day of thunder and almost all were lost in the first. Their story leads up to it, and it serves as a final capstone, likely with a singular 'after effect' in their memory and honor (e.g. Families devoted to their memory, such as what happened with the Otaku family.)

I personally voted for the 9 person option as "1/Clan" but I am honestly not really sold on 7, 9, 10 or 11. All of the possible numbers in this rainbow are eligible to work. I don't see any as inherently better than the others for our purposes.

Why 7 thunders worked as cleanly as they did in the original canon was that it reflected the 7 basic factions of the game. The 6 from the core set +Scorpion (of course not counting the bad guy faction, haha.). It was within a very very limited lore setup where there were 7 factions in the game. The Mantis, the rise of the minor clans, the advent of the Spider.

[Doji Dojihime]

Here is my thoughts on this from a gameplay standpoint, the more Thunders the more drama, not really greater participation because by design the Thunders are meant to be exclusive,else Shinsei could have brought 200 thunders… but by that design, let’s say that we have 1 per clan plus Nezumi, some clans might have 5 people show up and now you are competing against those 5 while the Nezumi or like the Unicorn had what 1 player by the end? Does that 1 win by default? Is there now a threshold to be a Thunder so what happens if you are the one and fail to reach that an NPC fills the slot? That seems rough too.

Or let's say we decide that it isn’t one per clan, just a total number of Thunders; those more populace clans/factions are going to have an advantage by sheer numbers which does not seem satisfying if the game is a competition of sorts. Or the other side is that if you are competing against a named person, or a known potential thunder, will you be pressured to step aside for them, either externally or internally?

I really feel that more participation does not make this better, it makes these problems worse for the potential gameplay. I could be wrong, but my gut says that this could be the most drama filled game especially with more slots because simple numbers means that someone is either going to have a breeze getting in or fight tooth and nail with other potential thunders.

[Kuu]

Might be able to prevent breezing through by having a default NPC that wins if players don't do well enough to beat them. But als have it so when it's time to do the job those NPCs only do passably and enable progress through self sacrifice, leaving the drama of the Day of Thunder to the players.

I just like the idea story wise to represent a more inclusive and representative empire in this timeline that has more groups.

[Chai Kotsume]

Might be able to prevent breezing through by having a default NPC that wins if players don't do well enough to beat them. But als have it so when it's time to do the job those NPCs only do passably and enable progress through self sacrifice, leaving the drama of the Day of Thunder to the players.

I just like the idea story wise to represent a more inclusive and representative empire in this timeline that has more groups.

I second this... and also, unless other players have chances to interact/ shine which are not tied to being a Thunder specifically (and I sure hope they do!), more Thunders = more opportunities for a place in the story.

That's why I suggested even more than 11 might be a good option. One per faction (possibly including an NPC if players don't do well enough, as Kuu said), plus some extra spaces for those who do well in clans with more players.

But then of course I don't particularly care for the game to be first and foremost a competition. As I said, I do hope those who aren't thunders have plenty of chance to get in on the story and make a difference. And if there is a good chance for spotlight for non-thunders, making the game less of a "Race for the Thunder", I think any number may work fine, as Nozomi said!

[Doji Dojihime]

I feel the opposite the actual Thunders mini-game should be very focused on the Thunders. We are all already affecting history in many ways, that should be a very specific and laser focused moment in time just for those characters.

There are times that exclusion and focus is better for the story than trying to include everyone and the kitchen sink.

I think the next game will have chances for those not chosen to affect the story but the actual Day of Thunder should be focused on the Thunders.

I don't have a real dog in this fight just pointing out some potential issues or thoughts. I am sure it will work out no matter the choice.

[Chai Kotsume]

Ah, I think I may be thinking of things wrong here then. I'd thought Dawn 4 would be the game for the Thunders, and I didn't remember it was a 'mini-game'. Also... not sure what 'mini-game' would mean here? Is it like a shorter game (like Tales)? Or a game for less people?

I do understand the idea that a Thunders game could be focused only on thunders, and on a small number of them. But in that case, it might be better for the game to have a limited number of participants too, maybe, to make that make sense for the story? Just b/c I think if it is like a 30 people game where only 7 to 11 PCs (or even less) actually matter, it might get a tad frustrating for everyone else.

But again, I do understand where your point comes from. Just trying to understand what "mini" means in this case, and how to balance what would make more sense for the story with what would be more enjoyable for the players.

Also worth remembering while some players (and even PCs) have left quite a big (and fun!) impact on the story already, there are at least a few who have just jumped into Dawn now, so those of us who are new are still hoping to leave a mark on the setting and join the worldbuilding

[Hantei Kinsen]

The idea of competing with NPCs for the position of Thunder, not just players, is quite nice. If, let’s say, the Stag characters are unable to beat (and even to be “sponsored” by other PCs to beat the main contender) then it is the NPC’s role. No one really loses. If points are not reached, they can be used as Influence.

[Nozomi]

I really feel that more participation does not make this better, it makes these problems worse for the potential gameplay. I could be wrong, but my gut says that this could be the most drama filled game especially with more slots because simple numbers means that someone is either going to have a breeze getting in or fight tooth and nail with other potential thunders.

I feel that you are, at least in part, correct here. In some ways, the 7 thunders were 'tighter' in terms of being a very specific, small, close-knit group bearing the destiny associated with the Great Clan founders. There's a possibility of an increase of drama (though I suspect that drama is going to be somewhat unavoidable in the process here).

I do think that the 'Thunder Moment' will probably be handled singularly and apart from what the main events of Game 4 are. Or at least, this is my hope. Much like the rescue, there is a specific role that the Thunders play, and it is played apart from the main body of the events of the game, with the remaining heroes helping to support events that lead up to, and make possible that moment. However, that Time of THunder itself will probably be handled sacrosanctly and separately. Or at least I think that's my preference.

Again, I'm pretty easy on this, but I also yield that I am about 99.9% likely to be playing this same character again, and there is no sense in which Nozomi will ever hold the title Thunder. This was a known factor the moment I allied her with Shinsei during the second game rather than Bayushi.

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I do think that a potential solution to the issue of "What if one faction only has 1 player" is to have available an NPC option at all times for all factions. Even if we only did 7 thunders, there's a possibility that there might be an under-represented clan. There's a limited number of our players, even if I'm impressed by the ongoing turnout for the campaign to this day. Percentile wise, split amongst 7 (when we in reality operate with 9 + other factions) there has always been a possibility of low representation of individual factions. Crab and Scorpion have had lower turn-outs on average in the last three games than in other settings, for example, and it is possible this may be the case going forward.

So, having access to an NPC option who can 'stand in' if an appropriate choice is not present is a good GM option, and for us as players it's good to be aware that this may be appropriate or necessary in some cases for cinematic integrity.

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Edit Again: HAHA, I'm wrong. Can't change my vote. Ah well. I'll run with whatever, but i lean 7 or 9.

[Togashi Satsuki]

Next game will center around the war+Day of Thunder, but after the Thunders have been chosen/found, there will be a separate "mini-game" which will be *the* Day of Thunder itself with only the Thunders.

If I understand it right from the example Canary used.

[Nozomi]

Next game will center around the war+Day of Thunder, but after the Thunders have been chosen/found, there will be a separate "mini-game" which will be *the* Day of Thunder itself with only the Thunders.

If I understand it right from the example Canary used.

This is also my belief and understanding.

[Togashi Satsuki]

Next game will center around the war+Day of Thunder, but after the Thunders have been chosen/found, there will be a separate "mini-game" which will be *the* Day of Thunder itself with only the Thunders.

If I understand it right from the example Canary used.

This is also my belief and understanding.

Me also voting for 9 is because 9 is more manageable than 11 for a mini-game/combat session to run on track.

[Hisomu Kuni]

I think there should be a NPC for every Clan. Even if a Clan has a lot of people, it's possible they won't have anyone who can beat the NPC. Plus it makes sense. The Imperials get a decent showing, but Isawa should still be a possibility.

[Doji Dojihime]

I think there should be a NPC for every Clan. Even if a Clan has a lot of people, it's possible they won't have anyone who can beat the NPC. Plus it makes sense. The Imperials get a decent showing, but Isawa should still be a possibility.

I hope this is how it goes, it seems the cleanest solution.

[Canary]

The NPCs were always going to be possibilities.

Even if they're all players, I have a plan for handling it. Try not to worry too much about that aspect of it.

Also, you can change your vote now.

[Nozomi]

The NPCs were always going to be possibilities.

Even if they're all players, I have a plan for handling it. Try not to worry too much about that aspect of it.

Also, you can change your vote now.

Thankees Birb. Appreciate it.

Yeah, I figure you guys have to have something planned in the next year to figure out how to handle the insanity of a 7-11 person climactic scene/multi-scene.

Oh god... I am so glad I'm not gonna be a thunder. HAHAH