Player Events

[Ryoshun Ume]

I'm much more likely to have an All Day Exhibition than any sort of single event. One does not need to stand around to show paintings, kimono, flower arrangements, etc. People could just drop in whenever, and if that precludes influence, so be it.

[Doji Dojihime]

I'm much more likely to have an All Day Exhibition than any sort of single event. One does not need to stand around to show paintings, kimono, flower arrangements, etc. People could just drop in whenever, and if that precludes influence, so be it.

Understood but if you do want Influence then we can fit it in and typically even that style of event should have someone on hand to explain what is going on.

[Kakita]

I’m probably also a fan of the influence divorce.

[Makime Ayano]

The tying of influence to player events is worrying to me for reasons already given and far better then I could explain.

[Chai Kotsume]

I do think the competition for events may make things a bit stressful... But then some players may not have many other chances to get points, I think?

The listed possibilities not linked to player events are:
-Place in an official GM-run event, as listed in the event itself.
- Engage in an act of heroism
- Do something that nets an Honor gain or more than .3
- Significant artistic achievement

One depends on the GM events - which is possible but pretty much depends on the fit between chars and the events. Other 2 depend on opportunities - heroism may also depend on fighting. Honour may be easier for some folks, but not for others - depends on the character I guess. Artistic achievement is pretty much something for artisans.

So for at least some types, opportunities may be limited without player events, I guess?

Something that might make things interesting and not make people fight so much for a spot for their event would be if events granted some points to those who host it (as per the current rules) - which could be granted to others in the clan/group maybe? - and also offered a few points to those who win / place/ succeed in some things in the events. That way folks could get at least some points by participating in player events (providing another incentive to participate) without so much pressure to hold one event of their own...

Does that sound reasonable? Or would it be too complicated? I'm just brainstorming here

[Jiyo Sora]

While I know about the need for a metric to tabulate results, any time point-chasing is based upon player-created events... you're inviting some serious sour grapes.

I mean, I'm already resigned to my guy not being built to excel in court on a mechanical front (and plan on mostly trading on his importance and past deeds), layering on more court-centric events (which most of these are justifiably shaking out to be- this is winter, nobody's doing a hell of a lot outdoors) to further deepen the hole brings back grim memories of chapter one

[Ryoshun Yua]

In hindsight, this is why, traditionally, the nonGM event influence has tended to be some kind of off to the side mechanic. It's finding a spot that's lower stress and complexity for an element that does feel kind of necessary for a winter court, but doesn't take a lot of time away from the roleplay folks are showing up for. Additionally, not introducing a giant disparity between folks with more time to post and those who don't or who hit RL no oni days--which is what a purely rp influence mechanic would do.

I can see why, with court and the full layers of courtly skills not yet established, we're hunting alternatives to the usual 'make a Courtier roll within these parameters,' thing. But jockeying for limited timeslots is kind of painful, as well as making those available days a long slog of threads that people are trying to make as large as possible (population-wise). Can't say I'm looking forward to Day x...can't do some fluffy tea threads or one-on-one negotiation because there are events in every timeslot and I have some obligation to hit like three of them, and everyone I'd interact with is in the same boat.

Only now thought of: player fade means you're also jockeying to get your event into an early day to have a better chance of more people even being around to attend.

Getting mechanics balanced is never perfect, often very not perfect. But you can skate over a lot of unbalanced if something is fun. (this kind of describes the entire L5R system, honestly) I'm hearing a lot of 'this does not feel fun but does feel kind of mandatory', precisely because, as you noted, it's possibly a significant source of points for your clan that players can control.

Can't say I have a shiny alternative. I'm not in the space where I have bandwidth for crafting macro-mechanics right now, or I'd offer some. I know full well that it's complicated to do.

[Jiyo Sora]

That... and we all know Plot is going to happen...

[Shinjo Ryoko]

Plot no Oni will eat all your fancy events

A partial solution would be to limit influence gain per person to one player event a day. You can attend more, but get points only from one you've prioritised, if you score in it. The hard solution: if you fail priority event, tough luck. The soft solution: you can pick which event you've benefited from after you've done your run.

Fluff-wise, it could mean this is what you want your Clan/family be known for/their speciality etc.

The solution has its own problems, but at least puts all-goers and less-goers on more equal footing.

[Shinjo Ryoko]

Another equalising move would be to award 3 influence gain opportunities per day for each faction, to account for disparity in membership. Would encourage some in-Clan coordination and give a shot to less represented Clans.

[Jiyo Sora]

Another equalising move would be to award 3 influence gain opportunities per day for each faction, to account for disparity in membership. Would encourage some in-Clan coordination and give a shot to less represented Clans.

This would also help factions weather drops- and keep "oo, shiny!" factions from running away with things through sheer weight of numbers...

[Shinjo Ryoko]

Yeah, my thinking. Because I think it's part of the anxiety, being thorn between the hope to do meaningful things for your lot while not having RL time or singular event-focus to be all over the place. And I'd rather see a game that wouldn't waste GM energy on managing dissatisfaction.

[Ryoshun Yua]

That... and we all know Plot is going to happen...

XD yes. Also soap opera. Plot without the capitol p, I guess that'd be?

A partial solution would be to limit influence gain per person to one player event a day. You can attend more, but get points only from one you've prioritised, if you score in it. The hard solution: if you fail priority event, tough luck. The soft solution: you can pick which event you've benefited from after you've done your run.

I was reading the player event thing as mainly for the organizers to gain points, not attendees. To award points in a player event, the organizers need to have enough points to award some, which I suppose may happen. But I very much doubt it will happen at enough of them to require that level of prioritization for attendees. With it requiring 10 additional attendees to give organizers an extra point, the ROI there is kind of rough when you've got roughly 30 players total at start?

Another equalising move would be to award 3 influence gain opportunities per day for each faction, to account for disparity in membership. Would encourage some in-Clan coordination and give a shot to less represented Clans.

Creates issues with the fact that faction and personal goals run off the same points. Limit opportunities for factions and now the large factions see their people's individual goals starve, because factions don't currently earn points, characters do, so a limit is a limit on how many characters can grab points in a day. Solvable by a split system. But that's a lot of work to develop in a week, though I think it has some interesting design space to play with overall to balance factions without faction caps (which never *really* balance them anyway).

Or solvable by making WC points all about faction goals with personal goals remaining on a no-points "you get one" or whatever kind of system. (still a split system, just one side doesn't bother fussing with points). So here, it boils down to GM team needing to put in a level of work I feel might be an unreasonable ask in the timeframe (don't know what GM events look like...maybe this could mesh with minimal fuss?). It's going on my personal WC notecard to play with and has given me some ideas for my TT group's WC planning in progress. ^^

[Doji Dojihime]

Good ideas here, not sure if Birb is following this, so it may be best to bring these to her in PM or in the GM questions thread. I wll just proceed as the rules dictate until told otherwise.

[Chai Kotsume]

I like many of the ideas here - although I also worry about the problem that might be created by player and faction goals competing for points if points are limited 'per faction'. Although all in all it ends up with one of three problems:
- factions with less players are penalised (if the limit is by player); or
- players in factions with more players are penalised (if the limit is by faction); or
- a split system is needed, with takes work

That said, I'd like to answer this part:

I was reading the player event thing as mainly for the organizers to gain points, not attendees. To award points in a player event, the organizers need to have enough points to award some, which I suppose may happen. But I very much doubt it will happen at enough of them to require that level of prioritization for attendees. With it requiring 10 additional attendees to give organizers an extra point, the ROI there is kind of rough when you've got roughly 30 players total at start?

I had suggested that Player events might grant some points to organisers, and some to those participating in it, instead of only granting points to organisers. I think that might make it so that folks would feel less compelled to necessarily hold events just to get points, since you could also get points by participating in different things. That said, a limit by player and/ or by faction would probably make sense here as well, and that would probably fall into the problems mentioned above.

So... yeah, no easy one out. And well - Birb and Underbirb are the ones to decide here, and we should trust them to help make things fun (and not be jerks while vying for influence to make this a fun game instead of just a competitive one )

Also... as Dojihime said above, if we want Birb and Underbirb to actually consider these ideas, we should probably PM them to point out the ideas here. Should we, then? I don't wanna create extra stress one week before the game starts too, so there's that...

[Ryoshun Yua]

*nod* pardon, misread your previous post with the 'points on which end of events' misunderstanding in mine. I'd opine that it's too complicated to rework an attendees gaining points element in this close to game start.

I'm not intending to point Birb at this since I'm really not sure stressing over a rework is kind or wise this close to game start and I had the impression that the general 'events tied to points are making me twitchy' sentiment was expressed over in the Discord (I'm not there, so that could be utterly erroneous). It's really more of a keep/toss that element now. The rest is more of an exercise for how it could/could not work another time, in my opinion.

[Yoshitsune Chizu]

As I’m the only Crab so far, I’ll offer to sponsor a draw lot play as a Crab event on one of the player event days. Maybe an evening slot since being drunk is probably helpful. I’m thinking it will be mechanics-light, primarily for the LOLs.

[Chai Kotsume]

*nod* pardon, misread your previous post with the 'points on which end of events' misunderstanding in mine. I'd opine that it's too complicated to rework an attendees gaining points element in this close to game start.

I'm not intending to point Birb at this since I'm really not sure stressing over a rework is kind or wise this close to game start and I had the impression that the general 'events tied to points are making me twitchy' sentiment was expressed over in the Discord (I'm not there, so that could be utterly erroneous). It's really more of a keep/toss that element now. The rest is more of an exercise for how it could/could not work another time, in my opinion.

This is a very good point. These ideas are probably not possible to implement this close to game start, so they are more useful for future games.

[Doji Hikaru]

- players in factions with more players are penalised (if the limit is by faction)

As longs as players get a few Influence points just for existing, I think factions with more players will do just fine; they get enough benefits as is.

It seems as though most of the worry comes from the fear of added pressure. Since getting Influence improves a Clan's prospects, there is pressure to make events for limited events, to hustle others to attend those events, and possibly to attend events in hopes of getting prizes, or as political favors.

With that in mind, if player events are definitely going to grant Influence, I would propose a simple suggestion: If someone from a Clan does an event, that clan gets X Influence points for majority agreement Clan goals, one time only.

Advantages:
-It's simple!
-Assuming 1 event per clan, that's 12 events for 24 slots, instead of 30-40+ if we're going by one per player
-No pressure to attend; join the ones you want
-The above two items means scheduling becomes vastly easier
-No pressure to get people to attend. Yuruzu and GMs will get notifications if the event creator thinks they would be fun there, rather than feeling a pressure to do so for points

[Reiko Machiko]

or we just split influence from player events, so there's zero pressure at all